Curse

korcan · Nov 02, 2006, 11:19 PM // 23:19

i was capping in ice floe and noticed some strange ai behaviour. i came across a mob with the monk boss i wanted to cap so i went about my business and targeted the casters first. as soon as i hit a caster they started to run, i didnt want to aggro more mobs so i regrouped and targeted the warriors the second time around. no problems as none of the casters ran off, it just took a little bit longer to kill the warriors because of the heals [not a big deal].

ive read in a bunch of posts that casters are runnin for their lives if you target them. the same happened to me when i targeted the monk boss. he was runnin, literally all over the map, so it made it near impossible to kill him. after runnin around in circles for a bit i noticed that the monk boss had strayed so far off from his original mob that it deaggroed the warriors. after noticing this, i went to the warriors and killed the remaining members that were in the monk bosses group. after killing everyone in his mob, the monk boss stopped running and i was able to kill him.

MSecorsky · Nov 03, 2006, 12:12 AM // 00:12

Got me to thinking... why is it that I never (repeat never) have these issues... what do I do wrong/differently? Just had the thought that in the PvE battles for the most part I'm targetting closest and not worrying too much about monks and the like (this being on the training Island). Maybe you need to engage the non-monks, get the monks busy and they'll forget to run.

Side note... today I made the mainland for the first time.

I'm giddy.

Amity and Truth · Nov 03, 2006, 12:30 AM // 00:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by MSecorsky

Side note... today I made the mainland for the first time.

That is basically why.
The problems occur during the mid to endgame of the campaigns, when the mobs start to be more balanced on classes and the levels rise above 20. It's not that noticeable before simply because your level is higher than that of the monsters.
Once that pendulum swings, you'll notice the problems at hand quite fast.

Thallandor · Nov 03, 2006, 01:00 AM // 01:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by gabrial heart

I agree, it's completely rediculous now. If a group of 8 level 20's are dyying with those dumb insects in marga coast, then something HAS to be done. The AI now is pitiful, casters are the worse, canceling till thier e is gone, warriors that have actually stood around for an entire battle, monks that hardly ever heal! I have my hero windows up and dunkoro can be running around with a full e bar and the party is dropping dead, mostly due to him running around like a chicken with his head cut off.

QFT the bolded section is worse, this needs to be fixed.

Edit: Sid Soggybottom dont come here and pick fights if you cant handle/finish it otherwise learn to post and if you still have a problem, pm me instead of flamebaiting here and read the forum rules:

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/content...nes-id2030.php

undeadgun · Nov 03, 2006, 01:11 AM // 01:11

From the last few days i played through the game, i admire that the end part of the game os pretty hard, but with right heros and right henchman, there's the way to deal with those lvl 24(Shadows,Margonites,Shiroken) and lvl 28(Rain of Terro, Spear of Torment,Blade of Corrruption,Shadow of Fear,Scythe the Chaos, Word of Maddness,Arm of Insanity). Me personaly is a paragon, and i use a condtion Necro, a fire nuker,and a water ele for the hero part, and use 2 monk henchies,1 war hench,1 paragon hench. i can personally take up to 2-3 groups of lvl24s, and max 2 groups of lvl 28s, the thing is, u just need to get uesd of it, and most important thing is choose your hero wisely(the monsters are all fleshy creatures btw, so condition can kill em quickliy with Virulence and Epidemic).

explodemyheart · Nov 03, 2006, 01:13 AM // 01:13

I can deal with everything else, honestly. I can adapt and work around it. What I can't deal with is my henchmen and heros casting and cancelling spells constantly until they have no energy. They're still doing it. Anything with a glyph does it the most, but even my monks are doing it to random spells too.

Sid Soggybottom · Nov 03, 2006, 01:19 AM // 01:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by explodemyheart

I can deal with everything else, honestly. I can adapt and work around it. What I can't deal with is my henchmen and heros casting and cancelling spells constantly until they have no energy. They're still doing it. Anything with a glyph does it the most, but even my monks are doing it to random spells too.

Yep. The only valid problem that people are bringing up are the hero skill cancelling quirks. Everything else can be easily worked around. Whether people are willing or able to do so is another story. There's just too much unwillingness to change going on...

Master Righteous · Nov 03, 2006, 01:20 AM // 01:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jetdoc

Isn't that what most players do in PvE? Take out the monks/casters first, and focus on the hard targets later?

In Cantha I started attacking the charging axe weilding Jade knights first, then killing the casters. I has worked better for me in PvE, for a while. If there has not been any charging ass'n or axe weilder, then I attack the casters first. If I had wards of protection

, then the strategy would be adjusted.

Phades · Nov 03, 2006, 02:02 AM // 02:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lagg

So basically what you're saying is we should all play Wammo?

Just have every Wammo take healing and condition/hex removal.

Heck, we got Lion's Comfort, we can all take Purge Signet and use it on each other.

Play into profession strengths, not their weaknesses. If you are wasting 2s every so often to keep yourself running in pve using something like purge sig, you are not causing enough offense to offset the frontloaded enemies of higher levels. Some things you just have to let others deal with, but its definatly not a damage dealing caster's job, that is for certain.

If you are really interested in the dollars and cents of the matter check out the following threads.
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...d.php?t=113319
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10015193
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...d.php?t=141050

Lagg · Nov 03, 2006, 10:36 AM // 10:36

Allow me to make an analogy. I love analogies. They can prove you right no matter how wrong you are. Of course, in this case, I am right.

Let's say that ArenaNet is an automobile retailer.

Two years ago, they sell us a truck (Prophecies). People buy this truck and like it. They like it so much that a year later, they buy an extra trailer for that truck (Factions).

Now, almost two years later, we go out to buy yet another trailer for our truck (Nightfall), but instead, this is what happens.

"Hey, what happened to our truck?"

"Oh, yeah, your truck was getting old, it's a sports car now."

"But, I liked this truck..."

"Are you an artard? Sports cars are awesome! They're fast, they're sleek, they're red...women will want you!"

"But..."

"Come on, now! Try it!"

* goes out to try the sports car *

"So how did you like the sports car?"

"Yeah, you were right, it's fast and sleek and red...I also picked up a few chicks under way."

"Well, another satisfied customer!"

"Yeah but can I have my truck back pl--oh, he's gone."

* sells the sports car to buy a truck from a different company *

Jugalator · Nov 03, 2006, 11:22 AM // 11:22

Ahhh, a classic car analogy.

Anyway, I just played PvE and didn't really mind any monster AI changes; what was most annoying was that my ally AI seemed to lose their targets often, after I had called actual, live targets. That and I might have noticed some skill cancels. But as for the enemies, I at least got through Consulate Docks while underleveled and not knowing what to expect from AI on the first try, and I don't exactly consider myself an awesome PvE player. Maybe it get worse later on, but so far (now in Kourna), I'm not noticing anything huge besides perhaps a bit more pressure on my casters, which I can definitely accept as it makes the battles more dynamic than just having the fights "over there" while you can stand back and fling your projectiles or whatever. It's mostly stuff with *my* AI allies that's annoying here.

manitoba1073 · Nov 03, 2006, 01:27 PM // 13:27

Well i dont know about you guys but i think the fixed the AI for the monsters now. i havent seen anything i would consider unusual behaviors, except the very rare extra long follow if your running. what do you guys think. though i do have that damn cast cancelling prob, just not as bad as it was though.

WasAGuest · Nov 03, 2006, 02:09 PM // 14:09

I'm finding the AI still to be rather good in a challenging way; though it does need some work and tweaking still.

The Human AI is very exploitable still. That enemy monk or caster is dumb as a brick and far to scripted to just flee as soon as it's hit. Why is that bad? Come up from behind it and hit it... it runs into your group and keeps going even after body blocked by your back line...

The creature AI seems pretty good so far. Onto the mainland and finding creatures are still less "smart" than the human AI is. The creature casters are less likely to flee when hit (this makes fighting creature different then humans and that's good). Their AI also seems more aggresive and less defensive, again a good thing.

My only complaint so far has been the quirky multi-group of different mobs all coordinating attacks on one target. In player group, we watched two full groups of Kournans and a groups of "roaches" all coordinate an attack on one monk, then the next, then the ele and so on. How the "roaches" are talking and communicating with the Kournans to do such a wonderous feat is beyond reasoning... and actually kinda dumb.

Anet should mix that up and actually add some thrill to a fight like that. A mixture of mobs like mentioned above shoudl quickly turn into a free for all battle... as it was, it was a mixed up bag of quirky AI vs the players. A better illusion of a living world would have been if the "roaches" also attacked the kournans as well as us players.

PS. that wasn't a bad pull mentioned above... we were "Leeroying" to have some fun. The fun was short lived as we watched the AI act as above and left us wondering about AI issues, rather than thinking "wow, we just got our butt's handed to us"... see the difference in mentality from a "living world" to "oh yea, AI needs working"?

Phades · Nov 03, 2006, 02:09 PM // 14:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lagg

...

Or, the cold reality of inefficiency could be hitting you. In either case, it really doesnt matter.

IAL · Nov 03, 2006, 03:47 PM // 15:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

Or, the cold reality of inefficiency could be hitting you. In either case, it really doesnt matter.

It does matter to these people (as it doesnt to you "obviously" maybe you should find a better way to spend your time) as people actually enjoy playing this game, its not something they just do because they have no better things to do.
I would neither apply dmg output calculations from single target to PvE as it contains so many more factors. I would consider doing so to be dumb.

Well back to the point, anet is doing the old twix r us thing, which has proved to be the way to go in the past (ironic), just look at utopia (and if you dont know what game it is, voila) it got tweaked to death, more or less.
Eventually they went back making it less complicated and thus holding on to some players, but not before they had lost a great deal of its community.

In short people wants to have fun, if this means being able to go through a game relativly fast even as a newb (not noob) so be it.
In prophecies they solved this in making two new realms (fow and uw), for the more expereinced gamers.
Later they begun tweaking the AI, some changes were ok some were not, mainly i think they've cornered themselves into a dead end with this.
This instead of learning and adding new parts instead, realms if you like that etc.

This is something i've learnt during my gameplay.
Activity comes from having fun, which is its turn is based on three things manily.

1. Simplicity. To play should be easy, thus making it easy to leap away to another place / time / dimension or whatever you want to call it. You also need to be able to experiment / discover.

2. Accessiblilty
IF a player wants to become better it should be easy to learn, this means having an easily accessible community aswell as it being easy to get some fast action.

3. Personality
You have to be able to identify with whatever it is you play or make a special mark on it. You also have to feel comfortable with the game in itself.

GW
1. Prophecies was easy, maybe not the first time you played it, but when you had done it once you knew the tricks and you knew how to play it.
This was good as people like being able to predict how a mob reacts and know how to go about with things, which gave them time to focus on other things, the surroundings, quests, bonuses etc. New mobs however required new actions, and still kept some focus on how you had to play.
This was why the lvl number and skills varied so much, which a new "smarter" AI this wont be as necessary. Neither can u experience as much fun knowing that the mob will react in a random way depedning on the groups composure. With the extra time it takes to defeat a mob, going through mobs quickly is gettin more important due to time reasons. - In short they force you to put more focus on the game and less on relaxing / having fun.
You can also experiment in a totally different way if you do know that you wont risk flaming etc taking skills that are not essential to the party, but could prove to be. - Let humans be smarter then the AI, let her be the core of the game and let her feel pwoerful and smart, do not take the game away from the general player.
(this is all generalisations, if ure HC or professional gamer you might find it to be another way).

2. IF something is easy to do, people wont have so much hesitation in doing it, (this will help players get through the game easier and be more intrigued to go into the harder parts of it) as more people will play more parts of the game. With the new parts of the story coming out every 6 months (?) there will still be plenty of "money sinks".

3. Here is where gw now starts to shine, even though i would like more ability to fustomise the charachters, the longer the game goes on though the more unique the char gets. I did however not like factions any way near as much as prophecies, this imply cause it didnt feel half as well done as it. Freeing up time from these kind of tweaks could make anet actually improve the work on the game. Now theyve tried to do both, and i havent rushed NF so its still up to see how they have suceeded.

In short id like ot see GW work as a good book where you write your own chapters in your own pase. That is how i think it should work and why chapter 1 was so popular.
Keep the game simple, dont increase the skin amount so extremely, make more realms instead of tweaking it to pieces and
for gods sake make it more fun again.

Karmaniac · Nov 03, 2006, 04:10 PM // 16:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sir Kilgore

Ultimately it would seem to me that the more people who can play the game the way that they enjoy it, the better off the whole thing is.

QFT couldn't have said it better myself even if I had tried.

I quite liked the old AI (like did most other people) it rewarded coordination and even a form of tactics. Tanks tying up aggro, monks would heal, nukers would nuke and utility classes doing the uncategorized. All in all it was a good (although a bit repetitive) system that gave a sense of purpose. This was when monsters weren't visibly aware of their own mortality nor excessively telepathically aware of your team's armor, health and intentions (interrupting 1/4 s casts ftw!)
Of course I would agree that improved AI is good thing that keeps things fresh. However the monster behaviour is nowhere near intelligent at the moment. Part of it IMO is the distinction between being believeable and going totally overboard. Going after the casters in its own right would be a smart move being the backbone of damage and survival (old system handled this quite well). Going after them when they are jillion miles away through enemy's front- and midline while being crippled, blinded, poisoned and warriors hacking at your back (and losing heart and fleeing when halfway through your hp bar) is not very intelligent however. Quite the contrary even. If thing are to improve monsters should be made to be more aware of their surroundings. Literally they should cover their rear end more and act so that it exposed as little as possible. You don't see me charging ass first into the combat do you? Which is exactly what a monster does when trotting through your ranks

Lot of work to do there good folks of Anet because hardcoded monk hate just doesn't cut it in the AI department.

Katari · Nov 03, 2006, 05:00 PM // 17:00

The problem is, if you aska disturbing amount of people, they'll want dumb briks that they can 'farm' for cash. They'd prefer a working Prot Bond so they can go solo the UW over a difficult area that takes teamwork to get anywhere in. They'd want monks to stand stationary in 'uber'-double-echoed meteor shower. Too many people want some ultra-easy PvE so they can farm for more gold and get.....what?

The old AI rewarded coordination, and a form of tactics, sure. It was all based on a shockingly stupid AI. Is the new AI one that players can't defeat with coordination and tactics? I sure hope not. The new AI isn't perfect, it might be a bit smarter, but it can certainly be exploited as well. There are definate 'tactics' you can use to smash them in to peices. It just so happenes that these are different tactics, and people hate change. Now all they need to do is to give the AI a full skillbar to play with, and things might get even more interesting.

At the last major AI update, eles were 'made' useless at killing (actually, they were as 'useless' before the update, but that's another matter) and people adjusted. Now the monsters that you really don't want running, run, and the monsters you don't want chasing your casters, chase your casters...so take a snare! Even in later areas, the AI is still much worse than an actual player.

Quote:

If a group of 8 level 20's are dyying with those dumb insects in marga coast,

....If a group of level 20s are dieing to insects on the marga coast...you have problems. The problem there, however, is not that the AI is too hard, but that the team of players has an AI deficency. Is your Koss running a frenzysig wammo with mending? Was Dunkoro given any healing skills besides arcane echo and breeze? Is your armor equiped?

There were areas in some of the begining of the game that were more challenging than the Marga coast, typicaly in the form of overleveled ele monsters.

Rera · Nov 03, 2006, 05:21 PM // 17:21

Guys, the argument that human players are smarter than AI (which is actually a very dubious claim when applied to the GW community), is moot. A lot of people play with henchmen for convenience/preference reasons. If the monster AI is going to be buffed, the hench AI needs to be buffed also. For instance, your henchmen will not scatter from aoe damage under any conditions. They will all stand together in a nice little clump while those Ruby Djinns and Roaring Ethers wiped them all out with stacked nukes. It's infernally stupid behavior that makes a lot of areas much harder than they have any right to be, simply because the henchman AI hasn't been updated to balance the monster AI.

Sid Soggybottom · Nov 03, 2006, 05:28 PM // 17:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rera

Guys, the argument that human players are smarter than AI (which is actually a very dubious claim when applied to the GW community), is moot. A lot of people play with henchmen for convenience/preference reasons. If the monster AI is going to be buffed, the hench AI needs to be buffed also. For instance, your henchmen will not scatter from aoe damage under any conditions. They will all stand together in a nice little clump while those Ruby Djinns and Roaring Ethers wiped them all out with stacked nukes. It's infernally stupid behavior that makes a lot of areas much harder than they have any right to be, simply because the henchman AI hasn't been updated to balance the monster AI.

I agree that the henchman/hero A.I. needs to be tweaked. Especially with the spell cancelling bug. So I'm not at all opposed to fixing henchman/hero A.I. at all. But it's really not too bad at the point where you can't beat the Monster A.I. Afterall, it's still ultimately human intelligence coordinating the battle.

I do think the monster A.I. is just fine though and a lot more challenging. The monster density is lower too, so you're no longer fighting swarm after swarm of mindnumbing fights as when you did in Prophecies or Factions.

Perkunas · Nov 03, 2006, 06:30 PM // 18:30

It appears that some minor changes have been implemented. Before the 10/31 update, I was moving relatively easy thru certain areas. Was dieing some, but not getting wiped by every mob. With the 10/31 update, got wiped just going out the gate and with every mob I encountered. Taking several deaths and trips from res shrine to mob to finish the mob. Today, something is different. More like before the 10/31 update, but not quite. Again I am able to kill a mob or 2 with only a couple of deaths. Can't rush in, but now you can at least form an attack strategy, where you were wiped just targeting before.